Poll time

[valarltd]

I've been kicking around a Post-Rapture Romance Novel. It'd be a rather bleak one, a pair of lovers set against the massive disappearances and destruction.

And I have questions.

BTW: if you answer "other" please explain in a comment.

[Poll #1290813]

Comments

[saraphina-marie.livejournal.com]

Er, In the "I believe in it and dread it" was supposed to be "I don't believe in it."

Dur.

[kadath.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I find the idea of a Rapture so entirely hilarious/incoherent that I can't answer the poll. "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" "It's fictional! Make it up!"

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I am just getting some expectations, seeing where readers would be coming from.

You gotta admit, 78% of the US population vanishing overnight would make a heck of a novel, and leave a lot of pieces for the survivors to pick up.

[kadath.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't object to it on a fictional premise, and I could probably suspend my disbelief as long as you were consistent with Yahweh's motivations. I couldn't accept that he was actually good, mind you...I guess I'll go back and answer for the version of the Christian god I find mostly likely to pull a stunt like the Rapture.

ETA: My "Other" response for the children question is based mostly on having been raised Catholic and having some vague notion of Limbo/Purgatory. Kids go there! (My theology, it is totally sound.)

[reannon.livejournal.com]

I think the Rapture is so inextricably tied to fundamentalist Christianity that any book with it as the premise is going to be assumed to be Christian lit. Upon reading the back cover copy, I would immediately put the book back on the shelf, and I'm a Christian. The fundies naturally aren't going to pick it up because it's homoerotic. I think if you want to do a post-apocalyptic homoerotic THE STAND, find another reason for the people to vanish. You could have a nutter think it's the Rapture, if you really want to get into that stuff.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I love the idea of playing with the post-Rapture world.

I'm trying to find out if most people even know what it is, or if only the fruitcakes would even pick it up.

I recently encountered a graphic novel that postulated the post-rapture world in a much more interesting way than the Left Behind books, which kinda gloss over it all. It intrigued me

[reannon.livejournal.com]

I think most people are aware of the basic concept. I think you'd have to define your terms and theology in your particular Rapture, though. :)

long comment is long

[ellabel.livejournal.com]

wow, I left a lot of "other" answers. My thoughts:

1) the Rapture. I'm not sure if I believe in it or not. We weren't really taught it, just to expect the Second Coming whenever. Obviously the world's going to end someday, and it'd be nice to get to miss all the nasty stuff, but I'm not betting on it. So I don't disbelieve in it, I just haven't given it much thought. I focus my energy on being a better person while I'm here than worrying about the future (this also applies to post-college career, urgh help I graduate in 5 months what now)

2) The "type" of Rapture I am also not sure about, for the same reason. I don't think Christians would get special treatment in this world, but if it's the end of the world- I HAVE NO IDEA.

3) who gets taken- here is where I disagree with my mother. I think that if anybody lives a decent, good life, they have a shot at Heaven. Mom says you have to have accepted Jesus into your heart. My thinking is, what if you have, but you don't know it? What if you haven't had a chance to learn about Jesus? ANYHOW, I didn't pick one becuase I'm not sure. Obviously I think it's better if you love Jesus and share Him with others, but I think the overall effect is the same if you live a Christian-like life without being a Christian. This is just ordinary dying-and-getting-into-Heaven-or-not, mind, perhaps the Special Rapture Version is different.

4) Last question- I still don't see God as a homophobe, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this still. I don't think their orientation would have anything to do with whether they got left or not, if the Rapture occured.

I've always thought that it wouldn't be fair to leave children, because what if they found Jesus after the "train" left, so to speak? Would they be out of luck? Would they get a second chance? I mean, adults would probably get a chance to find Jesus once the world started, you know, ending. But what about kids too young at the time?

Re: long comment is long

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Depending on what you believe, folks have between 3 and 7 years to get right before the END. But if they do, they'll likely be tortured to death.

Children left would have as much chance as adults.

I wasn't worried about God being a homophobe. I was worried about the story coming off as such.

Re: long comment is long

[ellabel.livejournal.com]

Oh! In that case I don't think the story would come off as homophobic as long as they were not believers.

It worries me about the children, still. I know I made my first confession of faith at age 7, and I know now that I, personally, was too young for that decision, although at the time the pastor talked to me and was convinced that I was old enough. In my opinion, if God's going to be taking the innocent away, he'd be taking all the children.

Although maybe something would happen a few years previous to the Rapture - part of the world ending- that would prevent anyone from being able to have children, so there wouldn't be any minors to deal with. Nuclear war or something like that. Famine? Bioterrorism? Governmental actions against overpopulation that get out of hand? ALIENS!?

Re: long comment is long

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

The whole thing is a fascinating subject, but I wanted to add my two sense about this: Mom says you have to have accepted Jesus into your heart. My thinking is, what if you have, but you don't know it? What if you haven't had a chance to learn about Jesus?

St. Paul actually covered that. It's probably in Acts. He was specifically asked about people who had never heard of Jesus, and he replied something to the effect of it depended on whether or not they followed their conscience. Christians often overlook that inconvient third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, which is the One responsible for telling what is good to do.

[kitzheng.livejournal.com]

Even though the idea is rather fascinating, I think for me it'd be super super hard to separate the occurrence of the Rapture with some sort of Christianity and moral criticism of those left behind. Once you ask me to believe in the Rapture you ask me to believe in god, in the punishment of the "unfaithful," in moral codes which I find substantially flawed, and it's hard for me to step back and merely read about it as an interesting apocalyptic mythology rather than as a religious judgment.

If I read about a world post-catastrophe, I'd much rather read about a non-religious cause, even if some characters choose to interpret it in a religious manner.

But I'm sure lots of other people don't have my hangups :D? Me and Christianity are no longer close friends.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

Ahem. *puts on modest face* If you're seriously interested, my story, "The First Day," is a slash fanfic about 'the end of the world as we know it.' SciFi type. Um, LotR cast.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

The Rapture is such a fundamentalist Christian concept that I would have to assume that the writer had a moral agenda, much like the writers of those ill-written Left Behind books. Obviously, anyone not wafted up to heaven would be, by definition, a sinner. Leave behind people of different faiths and there's an implicit criticism: they were left behind because they didn't believe in Christianity. Leave behind gays, and it's implied that God considers gays to be sinners unworthy of heaven. And so on. I would be hearing the message of, "See! See who the sinners are? Don't be like them! Believe in the Christian religion! Don't sleep with people of the same sex! Then when it happens for real, maybe YOU won't get left behind!"

It doesn't work for me as a dark future novel, because, for one thing, there IS no future. As I understand it, the way the Rapture and the Tribulation are supposed to work is that people get Raptured, the people left on earth suffer for X number of years, and then everyone dies and gets judged. Not a lot to work with there.

I would much rather read about a believable disaster--a natural catastrophe, a disease, the aftermath of a war or a massive terrorist attack. You know, something the reader KNOWS could actually happen, rather than something that the reader may not ever have heard of, let alone believe in.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Actually, at the end of the Tribulation, you get a big ol' battle. Anyone who doesn't fight on the wrong side gets to live a thousand years with David as king in Jerusalem.

After THAT, we get the big judgement, and new heaven and earth.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

Huh. Never heard that version before.

But it's still not a believable premise--not in the way that a dark future novel involving a massive earthquake or a plague or a sudden, worldwide breakdown in technology is believable. It's predicated on a belief originating in the nineteenth century that's only held by some Protestant Christians, rather than on events that people know have happened and can happen.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's the traditional interpretation.

For myself, what's the point in living for 1000 years if there's no growth, no future to build, no children to be proud of, no goals ...

predicated on a belief originating in the nineteenth century

Regardless of when it started, I think it reflects Man's longing for peace, for the opportunity to live and grow without outside forces taking it all away from you. Which would be why it's losing favor today, when the majority of people *can* rely on the future.

[ravenskye8.livejournal.com]

From a Jewish perspective, there is no such thing as the rapture... I'd have trouble accepting the book's premise... as others have already stated, you'd be using a concept that is so bound up in judging those who were not taken - I think it would be impossible to remove the deep-seated Christian theology from it...

Especially if you're writing a homoerotic piece that's positive towards the main characters... I think people would be confused as to what kind of theologic point you're trying to make...

Perhaps if you make it like an X-Files episode... have the dissapearances be due to some kind of natural cause - but the majority of the characters could believe it's the rapture... so - as the plot unfolds, the characters interact with the action believing it's the rapture - but we as the reader know better, and so we're not grappling with the theological implications of the plot...

Hey - going along with the "government round ups" thing - perhaps the government is presenting the dissapearences as the Rapture... e.g. someone makes the announcement that the government believes that it's the rapture, and people keep talking about the signs, etc - but, really it's a huge cover up of something else...

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

have the dissapearances be due to some kind of natural cause - but the majority of the characters could believe it's the rapture...

Sounds like a promising premise to me!

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

See, I don't believe in any of it - not the tribulation, not the second coming, none of it.

So I'm free to approach it as a fascinating premise for a dark fantasy novel, which I think is what you're getting it? Left Behind was disappointing in so many ways (not least of which because it was terrible), but it definitely could be an interesting jumping-off point for a novel that did much more compelling things with world-building and characters. So that's how I answered those questions, from a plotting point of view.

I think you'd have to treat it as a post-cataclysmic society - regardless of the reasons why, that many people vanishing in a short time would create social effects that are more like the way the Black Death affected Europe than anything else.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

Question number two was problematical, since there was no choice for "I don't believe in the Rapture or the Tribulation at all", so I had to answer "other".

Honestly, a book where a large percentage of the population (many annoying) disappear overnight would be fun to read no matter what the reason. (Although the kid thing kills me. All those non-Christian parents mourning their babies....)

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Or all the babies getting left to starve and die because their parents are gone...

(When my husband confessed that yes, that was what he believed, I asked him if he couldn't see what a monster that kind of god was.)

[feed-your-muse.livejournal.com]

Babies & Kids - Other...because I don't know the answer to that one. I don't believe in the rapture - I don't think it's theologically sound, IIRC from biblical studies.

80% of the US pop. disappears - Other. Because instead of thinking of the good, I just wondered if there would be enough engineers left behind to maintain the nuclear power stations etc.

Men on a clean up crew - Other. Would they have been attracted regardless of the event? Is the event the catalyst? (80% of the population's disappeared so maybe they just said 'to hell with it'? (In rural areas there may only be a few people per square mile, so maybe men or women in that situation would form relationships under those circumstances anyway?)

NOt very helpful, I'm afraid. Sorry. But like some of the other commenters I'd find it hard to pick up a book about the rapture and not think it was directed at a particular religious group, and that would probably make me put it down again.

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I'd find it immensely disturbing and wouldn't buy it and would probably question a publisher that published it- unless it was done by someone like Dan Brown or Dawkins because I'd expect it of them.

It's actually an interesting premise but I'd like to see it handled in a way that makes sense - Heinlein's "Job: a Comedy of Justice" does it perfectly - incorporates the Rapture and the Tribulation, last Trump whatever in an interesting manner and simply makes Yahweh as "a god" who has,it turns out, a God of his own.

The difficulties have already been voiced by others - saying that children either get taken or not, why haven't these gays been taken? - or only Christians get taken or not? (here's where Yahweh being proved to be only one god and all the other religions were true too could come into play) or ONLY the Christians being taken - and what constitutes a Christian anyhoo? etc etc.

It's a minefield, and one that would piss off 99percent of the population in one way or another.

I suppose - as another commenter says - you can play with Yahweh's motivations, like- being not good like people believe him to be - how could a god who was good do such things? But then the bible is full of instances like that - Children getting torn to pieces by bears.

So.. no. A rambling comment but I'd definitely not read it. I'd advise you read the Heinlein book, though.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I think I read Job, a long time ago during a Heinlein phase.

I was thinking a really dark piece, to show just how monstrous the whole doctrine is.

Then the idea hit me: God never explicitly ensouled Eve... Women are only presumed to have souls today because a bunch of Irish bishops got really pushy at the Council of Nicea.

If it comes down to "This is a story I must write" I wanted to make sure people wiould have some understanding.

[feed-your-muse.livejournal.com]

Re: Eve - it depends which transaltion of Genesis you read. The oldest extant version states that God created man and woman in his image he created them - thereby implying that male and female were created equally; and because, being physically different, they weren't created in the physical image of God - it alludes to them being spiritually like God.

My 2p!

Merry

=^..^=

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Actually, the literal translation is the gods created them. Elohim is plural.

So the gods created humanity, then El sectioned off his garden. The rest of the world got on with civilization while he tried an experiment in innocence.

It also neatly explains Cain's wife and the sons of God/daughters of men thing.

[hopefuldark.livejournal.com]

Ill have my chat on all day... drop me a line!

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

Well I didn't actually do the poll, since every answer would be 'other' and that's not particularly useful. But I think this is a subject not often covered and therefore contains a lot of possibility.

Personally, I think that the Rapture, if it happens at all, will be in some totally unpredictable manner. Which does not at all mean that it's useless to study.