A look at the other side
Oct. 8th, 2003 08:19 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
valarltdHubby and I tangled last night over the politics thing.
He sees a world where it's proper to give lip-service to being religious, but anyone who really believes and acts on those beliefs is suspect. A country where he has to stop kids who are praying grace--silently and not bothering anyone--over their school lunches, lest someone take offense. A place where the pewter cross charm on his keyring makes him suspect. A school that can't even teach the historic impact of Christianity (which shaped the whole of Europe for a millennium) for fear of being sued.
I argued that devout believers have better things to do with their time. Which is what makes them devout.
He finds it offensive that in 50 years we've gone from a nation where basic religion was as mandatory as basic patriotism to one where anyone who believes had better hide it.
I can't say he's wrong when I think about some of the stuff I've seen. Yes, public imposition of religion is coercive. But there has to be a line of sanity where people say "This is not preaching, this is historical and cultural knowledge that you need!"
I mean, OK, Gutenberg invented the printing press. Whoop-de-do. Another useless trivia fact. But if you know this allowed common people to read the Bible, which in turn led to Luther creating Protestantism and breaking the monopoly of Rome on Europe, that led to the Renaissance really taking hold in the north of Europe, everything changes.
I want a country where people live by Jesus' words, not by Paul and Calvin's.
One where people treat each other with the kindness and respect that they expect for themselves. Not one where the rich are obviously blessed by God and the poor are wicked and deserve their poverty.
One that cares for its widows and orphans, instread of demanding they stand on their own with no support.
One that welcomes the outcasts to its table, instead of condemning them to Hell.
One where women are considered as important as men, instead of weaker vessels, prone to folly and deception. (Jesus tangled with his disciples more than once on this point)
And somehow, I don't think all the prayers in all the schools and all the textbooks with the evolution chapters torn out are going to accomplish that.
He sees a world where it's proper to give lip-service to being religious, but anyone who really believes and acts on those beliefs is suspect. A country where he has to stop kids who are praying grace--silently and not bothering anyone--over their school lunches, lest someone take offense. A place where the pewter cross charm on his keyring makes him suspect. A school that can't even teach the historic impact of Christianity (which shaped the whole of Europe for a millennium) for fear of being sued.
I argued that devout believers have better things to do with their time. Which is what makes them devout.
He finds it offensive that in 50 years we've gone from a nation where basic religion was as mandatory as basic patriotism to one where anyone who believes had better hide it.
I can't say he's wrong when I think about some of the stuff I've seen. Yes, public imposition of religion is coercive. But there has to be a line of sanity where people say "This is not preaching, this is historical and cultural knowledge that you need!"
I mean, OK, Gutenberg invented the printing press. Whoop-de-do. Another useless trivia fact. But if you know this allowed common people to read the Bible, which in turn led to Luther creating Protestantism and breaking the monopoly of Rome on Europe, that led to the Renaissance really taking hold in the north of Europe, everything changes.
I want a country where people live by Jesus' words, not by Paul and Calvin's.
One where people treat each other with the kindness and respect that they expect for themselves. Not one where the rich are obviously blessed by God and the poor are wicked and deserve their poverty.
One that cares for its widows and orphans, instread of demanding they stand on their own with no support.
One that welcomes the outcasts to its table, instead of condemning them to Hell.
One where women are considered as important as men, instead of weaker vessels, prone to folly and deception. (Jesus tangled with his disciples more than once on this point)
And somehow, I don't think all the prayers in all the schools and all the textbooks with the evolution chapters torn out are going to accomplish that.
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Amen
Date: 2003-10-08 06:41 am (UTC)Thanks for writing this.
Re: Amen
Date: 2003-10-08 07:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 06:46 am (UTC)I wonder how much of this is a regional thing. My kids go to public school in NJ, and they get a good deal of "comparative religion" stuff.
For instance, a few years ago the Future of Fandom's 6th grade had 5 different "what we celebrate this December" presentations done by parents: Christmas, Hanukah, Ramadan (which fell in December that year), Kwanza, and a Hindu festival the name of which I've forgotten. Right now she's in 9th grade and her honors English class is reading Chaim Potok's "The Chosen." Each student has to do a presentation on some aspect of Jewish culture, which included one of the Jewish boys reciting part of the Torah portion he had learned for his bar mitzvah.
Would this sort of thing be possible where you live?
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 06:54 am (UTC)I know, doesn't jibe with the earlier statements, but it is the case: no one gets touchy about a football prayer, yet let a teacher mention that artists during the Renaissance often chose religious subjects and the admin is down on her like a duck on a Junebug for fear of a lawsuit. The difference is the students are praying, vs. the teacher speaking from a position of authority.
Comparative religion is impossible when the kids can't read. The school where Hubby teaches is a warehouse to keep kids off the streets until they are old enough to be incarcerated.
The Hindu thing is Diwali, festival of lights.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 09:15 am (UTC)If being "Christian" publically in this country were actually about tolerance and mercy for one's fellow humans... but no, it's about hatred and control. I'm convinced those same concepts are behind a lot of Paul's letters.
I believe that Jesus had some incredible things to say, that just about everyone could learn from. I also believe that the bible is the product of generations of committee meetings by men who were products of their times.
It's also been translated a few too many times to be absolutely certain that it's exactly as the statements were originally intended.
Just about every religion I've learned anything about has some pieces of grace, some portion of the answer for how humanity is supposed to treat each other for peace and harmony to permeate our societies. Most importantly, no one has the only hotline direct to the higher power, to be the single and unique interpreter of truth, wisdom, grace, justice... and religions that realize that have my respect. The rest? Are cults.
Sorry, ranting. Stopping now...
I don't know how to manage a long term relationship of any sort with someone who disagrees with me on these issues. I've tried. Just a word of caution.
Hang in there... and *hugs*
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 01:11 pm (UTC)This is the first time hubby and I have tangled on these isuues. Hanging out with academics, pacifists (he used to be one out of sheer cowardice), librarians, feminists and lesbians has changed my opinions.
I mean, he's right on many points: this should not be The People's Republic of Amerika where any public display of belief is punishable by 10 years hard labor in a South Dakota Gulag. But it's also not the Republic of Gilead where belief in the state sponsored church is mandatory.
But what's important to one is not important to another. For a lot of people, gay rights aren't a blip on the radar. They aren't gay, they don't know anyone who is. They are one issue voters: pro-life, no deficit, no nukes, prayer in schools or smaller government.
I think we'll do fine.
::hugs back::
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 02:21 pm (UTC)If you believe in him to start with.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 03:42 pm (UTC)And I think if that 85% acted on the words of the author of their beliefs, and not the traditions that followed after, this country would be a better place.
I'm not saying nonbelievers should act on the words (although if they find merit in them, feel free).