Pissy mood

[valarltd]

Just severely out of temper, and took it out on a hapless poster on one of my mailinglists.

He tries to put women on a pedastal as perfection, and that gay men are removing themselves from women to keep from causing the perfect, wonderful beings any more distress.

He's either smoking too much Starhawk, or trying to get into someone's pants, is my opinion.

I suggested male homosexuality was another form of misogyny instead of a worshipful withdrawal. The words I hear about women from gay men are of loathing and revulsion, not of awe and worship.




I'm feeling misogynistic, so here's my point:

Women don't belong on pedastals. We're not perfect. In fact, the vast majority of women aren't even interesting.

They throw their brains out of their heads in their teens, and present themselves as sex objects. Men, seeing this, treat them as such. Some women actually have the nerve to complain about this treatment. Their mouths say "pigs" while their bodies and modes of dress are saying "come and get it." If one is dressed like a streetwalker, there is no room to complain when men ogle the goods on display.

By the time this fades, they've gotten caught in a rut of career/children/debt and have no time to develop interests in anything outside of those.

Women tend to bloom most after menopause. Then, they have time.
This is why witches and wisewomen are old. This power and wisdom is also why cultures have been afraid of old women forever. Our own culture has decided that "30=dead" or "35 is the next 18" depending on who you talk to. There is no sense of maturity or of dignity that goes with age.

Men hit 45, trade the wife in on a pair of 20's, buy a sportscar and get laughed at.

Women hit 25 and decide they're old bags. 14 year olds want to have babies instead of waiting until they're over the hill at 20.

My mother, still in thrall to her 1950's scripts, has beautiful silver hair. She dyes it an unbecoming red (she's a winter) because it "makes her look younger." I'm finding silver in my own hair, more this year than last. I think I may have dyed mine for the last time in May.

I'm ranting and rambling.

Being aware of the ways in which I despise my own sex (and the ways I use to cover it) tends to warn me when someone else is using the same tactics.

Comments

[norda.livejournal.com]

You've put into words what I've long thought.

[manna]

I don't entirely agree with everything you said on the list, but I admire you for responding to that post at all. I read it a couple of times, then gave up on it as hopeless. There are some theories so phenominally cracked out that I just have no idea where to even *start* with them.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I did my best to be inoffensive, but seriously, the guy was so far out I had trouble keeping cool. The post had niggled at me for days, so I commented back. I figured someone would jump down my throat.

If they want conversation about the male experience, the guys need to jolly well speak up!

[manna]

I did my best to be inoffensive, but seriously, the guy was so far out I had trouble keeping cool.

I couldn't think of any reply that wouldn't send Daro into a flat spin.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I really don't appreciate being told that my sexuality is "another form of misogyny". And if you assumed that homosexuality just means men, then I also really don't appreciate having my sexuality just wiped off the map, let's pretend lesbians don't exist. Whichever you are trying to tell me, whether it's that you think I must be misogynistic because I'm gay or whether you're trying to tell me that you think I don't really exist because I'm a gay woman, I don't like it. Quit it.

My other reactions are mainly that while the man you were reacting to sounds like a twerp, in reacting to him you sound like a misogynistic homophobic twerp.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Whoa, unknot the knickers, luv.

Had I meant lesbianism, i'd have said it.

We were speaking of homosexual and straight men and their reactions to women (as a whole, regardless of the women's orientation). Lesbians did not come into the discussion.

I'm not homophobic, but I refuse to accept the idea that being gay is a way for men to idealize women. That's just whack.

I freely admit to misogyny. My own bisexuality is a function of it.

[jkb.livejournal.com]

How does bisexuality come from misogyny for you? For me, I didn't start to be attracted to women until I began to appreciate them. Back when I thought women were stupid and weak, I was pretty straight. I'm trying to imagine how things could work in the reverse direction.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Whereas mine stems out of the "they're pretty, but not too bright. Why not use them as the objects they are presenting themselves as?"

This has changed as I've aged. A nice rack will draw my eye, but if it's attached to a gum-chewing vacuous-looking bimbo, I ogle and move on. I used to ogle obviously in an attempt to make said bimbos uncomfortable. Hubby hated going to the mall with D. and me because we would both scope out the girls the same way, and he was embarrassed to be with a pair of lechers.

Nowadays, I don't ogle deliberately, and I only am interested in women that have proven themselves smart and interesting. (The vast majority of these are turning out to be lesbians anyway.) But, since i can't offer anything serious, I pretty much don't offer at all.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Unknot your own knickers before you start in on mine. *grin* Double-entendre intended.

Thank you for editing your post to make it clear that your homophobia only extends to gay men. Now you're only insulting my friends instead of me...

I refuse to accept the idea that being gay is a way for men to idealize women. That's just whack.

I agree. It is. What makes you homophobic is your assumption that all gay men are misogynistic.

I freely admit to misogyny. My own bisexuality is a function of it.

What, you hate women because you find women sexually attractive?

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I've heard the "Women, eww gross!" response out of far more gay men than I've heard the "I must not hurt these beautiful, perfect creatures any more so I'm going to sleep with boys instead" idea.

I'm not saying *all* gay men hate women. I don't even think most of them do. I honestly think attraction is a huge mix of genetics, upbringing, pheremones and personal taste. I was presenting an alternative theory to his extremely whacked one.

But I hear enough revulsion out of enough gay men I know to think they have at least as bad an image of women's bodies as women do. (Say "het" or "explicit femmeslash" in a room of slash writers some time. I was shocked and appalled at the amount of "women, eww gross" that ensued on a mailinglist)

As for my tastes: I don't hate women because I'm attracted to them. The contempt I had allowed me to treat them as the sexual objects they were presenting themselves as. When every girl looks alike because the hair and make-up are identical, they are objects. Some women grow out of that phase, many don't. The ones that do, or the rare ones who never entered it, are usually interesting people.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I don't hate women because I'm attracted to them. The contempt I had allowed me to treat them as the sexual objects they were presenting themselves as. When every girl looks alike because the hair and make-up are identical, they are objects. Some women grow out of that phase, many don't.

My opinion, based on the real people I see around me every day:

The only people who think that all girls look alike and they're all presenting themselves as sex objects are misogynists. It's your own bigoted opinions that are skewing your view of reality: you are not drawing your bigoted opinions from reality. Once you figure that out, you won't be a bigot any more...