Under age?
Apr. 9th, 2003 02:52 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
valarltdThis is a rant. It in no way reflects the policies of LJ, or fandom as a whole.
How do we determine underage?
The 18 cutoff seems insane in fandoms like Buffy and Smallville. Especially since Buffy gave it up on her 17th birthday in canon. Someone mentioned it was illegal to depict those under 18 as having sex, because that's kiddie porn.
In that case, Joss & Co., the creators of Dawson's Creek, and every teen sex comedy ever made are all violating the law. So are any after-school specials that deal in pregnancy.
Stephen King gave us 7 twelve year olds having sex (1 girl, six boys) in It.
Heinlein gave us a 15 year old with "romantic fever," (I will Fear No Evil) a 12 giving it away willingly (ibid) a 13 year old coming home announcing "Mum, I guess I'm pregnant" (Friday)
Juliet is canonically 13. Two weeks away from her 14th birthday, and her mother was pregnant at 14 as well.
Judy Blume present 16 & 17 year olds having realistic sex in Forever.
In Chasing Amy, the girl has had a menage a trois before she's out of high school.
I think there is a huge difference between "kiddy-porn" and teen sex. Time Magazine reports that 1/2 of all 16 year olds have had sex. 3/4 have had oral sex and 1/3 have had anal sex.
I think, by insisting all our characters be over 18 before they do ANYTHING is a disservice. And it limits us.
I can see Ron and Hermione stealing a kiss by the time of Goblet of Fire. I can even see Hermione getting swept away by the older Viktor Krumm and making out past a point she's comfortable. (She's 14. My little sister was sleeping around at 14)
I honestly think there's a cutoff at puberty, around 12-13, where anything below should be considered a bad idea (or at least abuse). I think 13-15 is kind of dicey. But I know people who were having babies at that age, and think 16 is too old to be breeding.
I have no problem with 16 and over in explicit sexual situations, esp. if it is established that their society accepts that. Remember, Scarlett O'Hara was 16 at the beginning of Gone with the Wind. She was flirting, flashing her bosom and trying to catch a husband. India Wilkes was a washed-up old maid at 20.
She had her first child before her 17th birthday.
For your consideration, from my college madrigal group:
And I were a maiden c1510
And I were a maiden
As any one is
For all the gold in England
I would not do amiss
And I were a wanton wench
Of twelve years of age
These courtiers with their amours
They kindled my courage
And when I was come to
The age of fifteen year
In all this land, neither free nor bond
Methought I had no peer
The actual sound file
Rant over. I think I had a point somewhere.
How do we determine underage?
The 18 cutoff seems insane in fandoms like Buffy and Smallville. Especially since Buffy gave it up on her 17th birthday in canon. Someone mentioned it was illegal to depict those under 18 as having sex, because that's kiddie porn.
In that case, Joss & Co., the creators of Dawson's Creek, and every teen sex comedy ever made are all violating the law. So are any after-school specials that deal in pregnancy.
Stephen King gave us 7 twelve year olds having sex (1 girl, six boys) in It.
Heinlein gave us a 15 year old with "romantic fever," (I will Fear No Evil) a 12 giving it away willingly (ibid) a 13 year old coming home announcing "Mum, I guess I'm pregnant" (Friday)
Juliet is canonically 13. Two weeks away from her 14th birthday, and her mother was pregnant at 14 as well.
Judy Blume present 16 & 17 year olds having realistic sex in Forever.
In Chasing Amy, the girl has had a menage a trois before she's out of high school.
I think there is a huge difference between "kiddy-porn" and teen sex. Time Magazine reports that 1/2 of all 16 year olds have had sex. 3/4 have had oral sex and 1/3 have had anal sex.
I think, by insisting all our characters be over 18 before they do ANYTHING is a disservice. And it limits us.
I can see Ron and Hermione stealing a kiss by the time of Goblet of Fire. I can even see Hermione getting swept away by the older Viktor Krumm and making out past a point she's comfortable. (She's 14. My little sister was sleeping around at 14)
I honestly think there's a cutoff at puberty, around 12-13, where anything below should be considered a bad idea (or at least abuse). I think 13-15 is kind of dicey. But I know people who were having babies at that age, and think 16 is too old to be breeding.
I have no problem with 16 and over in explicit sexual situations, esp. if it is established that their society accepts that. Remember, Scarlett O'Hara was 16 at the beginning of Gone with the Wind. She was flirting, flashing her bosom and trying to catch a husband. India Wilkes was a washed-up old maid at 20.
She had her first child before her 17th birthday.
For your consideration, from my college madrigal group:
And I were a maiden c1510
And I were a maiden
As any one is
For all the gold in England
I would not do amiss
And I were a wanton wench
Of twelve years of age
These courtiers with their amours
They kindled my courage
And when I was come to
The age of fifteen year
In all this land, neither free nor bond
Methought I had no peer
The actual sound file
Rant over. I think I had a point somewhere.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 01:40 pm (UTC)How do we determine underage?
Honestly and truely, I think it's all bollocks and not worth worrying about. Real people, yes, many, many complex issues to discuss there. FICTIONAL CHARACTERS...well, what the hell is the problem? What possible harm are we doing them? They don't exist. They can't be hurt, no matter what. The whole thing just seems incredibly bizarre to me, although I know some people get very wound up over the issue.
And I'm pretty damn sure that *written* child porn is legal in the UK and the USA, although I suppose in the UK it might fall under obscenity laws.
I guess part of the issue...
Date: 2003-04-09 01:47 pm (UTC)I think the last part is the important part for a lot of people. I have fan fiction archived on my site featuring minors having sex. I don't like it (no plans to delete it unless C&Ded) and I'd never write it because I don't want to promote behavior that I consider inappropiate and bad. A lot of stories treat sex way to casually. Two sixteen year old boys shlep each other? Great! No consequences! This strikes me as possibly dangerous as there are consequences for actions like that which fan authors generally avoid or gloss over. (Adding those details would certainly add a level of realism to stories but probably sap a lot of fun out of sex sex stories featuring two characters who are minors.)
As for being illegal, they are depicting illegal behavior but they aren't actually illegal... though possibly in some states. Trying that isn't likely though.
Re: I guess part of the issue...
Date: 2003-04-09 02:44 pm (UTC)Not just Texas, Utah and Mississippi either, but Massachussets, Florida and Arizona.
There are always consequences. Which is what I loved about Buffy. Sex never worked out. There were always complications, consequences and collateral damages.
Re: I guess part of the issue...
Date: 2003-04-10 01:55 am (UTC)No consequences whatsoever, if they're two 16 year old virgin boys. Except maybe clumsiness.
Re: I guess part of the issue...
Date: 2003-04-10 05:03 am (UTC)And first sexual experiences for everyone aren't always pleasant, be it male/male, female/female, or male/female. Those experiences can lead to warped feelings, etc.
Re: I guess part of the issue...
Date: 2003-04-10 06:08 am (UTC)Some come in with wild expectations. I know the first time I saw a real live penis, I was underwhelmed, and very nearly laughed. (Too many fantasies of the Pompeiian brothel paintings) The first time I actually had sex, I was disappointed. But I was used to a 10" hard plastic toy that hurt.
Some leave with a much greater sense of attachment than their partners.
Some men, once they've had sex with someone, and especially after receiving oral sex from someone, tend to treat that person like (and I quote) "A cocksucking slut."
There's a world of emotional and physical fallout from sex. And not all of it is socially imposed.
I think good first times, especially in the teens, are much rarer than most people want to think. And those first times can shape a person's entire sex life. (My sister, 28, has been having sex for half her life and NEVER enjoyed it.)
Re: I guess part of the issue...
Date: 2003-04-10 09:32 am (UTC)Clumsiness, sure. But that's how people learn.
And first sexual experiences for everyone aren't always pleasant, be it male/male, female/female, or male/female. Those experiences can lead to warped feelings, etc.
Indeed. So everyone should stay virgin all their lives?
Point received
The fictional depiction of underage sex is not illegal. Underage sex (i.e., statutory rape) and photographic depiction of underage sex are illegal.
The thing is some people are ready for sex at 13, others aren't ready at 31. So basically, the age thing is arbitrary. I think the point of setting an age of consent is to decrease the likelihood of youngsters being taken advantage of and to increase the likelikhood that persons have the maturity to understand the decision s/he is making. When I think back on my teenage years, I'd have to say that for most of the people I knew 16 was about the age I would believe they had a right to make the choice for themselves with a decent grasp of what they were doing.
So for me, 16 year olds having sex in fiction doesn't even register on my offense meter. I may think differently if it were my son or daughter, but I hope I would have given him or her the skills necessary to decide for herself and act responsibly.
Re: Point received
Date: 2003-04-09 02:47 pm (UTC)http://teenadvice.about.com/library/weekly/qanda/blageofconsentchart.htm
In most states it's 16. Iowa & South Carolina are 14
Which is why I think as writers that limiting ourselves to 18 and over is silly.
Re: Point received
Date: 2003-04-09 03:00 pm (UTC)Yes, I agree. Sometmes a real world check is necessary.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-09 02:59 pm (UTC)In my own circle of friends, among those where I happen to have that information, the ages at which they first had sex vary from 12 to 21. Both the friend who first had sex at 12 and the friend who first had sex at 21 are currently in stable long-term relationships and are very happy: what seems to matter is not how young you were when you first had sex, but whether having sex was a good experience. This is something that everyone with common sense knows: some parents may wish to believe that their children never have sex and grandchildren come by spontaneous generation, but practically speaking sensible people know differently: post-pubertal kids will have sex, and this is normal and natural and may be - and has been - portrayed as such in works of literature throughout the ages. (The Kama Sutra is a sexual handbook intended for adult men who are marrying 12-year-old girls - standard in India at the time the KS written. On the one hand, this is repellant: adult men should not marry barely post-pubertal girls. On the other hand, in a culture where this kind of marriage is taken for granted, it's surely rather admirable than otherwise that there was a cultural classic to explain to the husbands that they should carefully seduce their wives rather than rape them.)
But the publishing companies that specialise in producing written pornography, especially in the US, know that they are at risk of prosecution effectively only if the prosecutor can claim that they are producing child pornography. And the sure way that they can absolutely legally safeguard themselves from any such accusation is to keep all sexually active characters in porn stories age 18 or over. This frequently results in plot idiocities, but porn editors are not in the business of worrying about whether the plot of a porn novel makes consistent sense.
I think the risk of being prosecuted for writing child pornography if you write about (for example) Buffy having sex with Willow in the US at age 17, or Harry having sex with Draco in the UK age 15, is small but real: sillier things have happened (a man in the US was once prosecuted and convicted and had to fight the conviction all the way up to the Supreme Court: his crime was to possess a swimwear catalogue where some of the models were supposed to look as if they were 14-15, though in fact all of them were over 18). I think the risk of being successfully prosecuted for writing child porn is too small to worry about: but obviously, simply being prosecuted, successful or not, would carry its own punishment for many people.
I say the risk is small but real. On 25th April, I'm going to get on a plane and fly to New York, and then get on another plane and fly to Montreal. The risk is small but real that one of the planes will be blown up by terrorist action. Nevertheless, I am going, because I do not choose to have my life dictated by fear. For those who do choose to live a life dictated by fear, I would advocate keeping to the self-censorship of the porn publishers and never let anyone under 18 have sex, however unrealistic that may be.