Question for those who know more about sex and gender than I do

[valarltd]

Setting: 13th century
I have a young prince who has been raised as a princess. Absolutely, totally cut off, for his own safety. His attendant maid is also a man in a dress. He believes everyone has penises and shaves, but the shape of the clothing is what distinguishes men and women.
He's been kept very naive, on purpose.

Is it possible to convince him that he is indeed a woman?
Would biology win out over conditioning since infancy?

After the actual differences in men and women are made clear, would he accept being male, or continue as female? Or a mixture of the two?


This is my first time working with a character like this. I've had cross-dressers for professional reasons, but none who has been dressed in the clothing of the opposite sex and told he was a woman since birth.

Comments

[kadath.livejournal.com]

People's "real" gender tends to out, despite their upbringing (not just binary gender; there are people who have fluid or neutral gender identities, too.) And no one is really sure about how the interactions between brain chemistry and upbringing work.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I'm playing with a Robin Hood story where Maid Marian is King Richard's bastard son, raised as a girl to protect him from his uncle's machinations.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

I think that it would be difficult unless he was kept away from:

* All art. The pictures alone, even in medieval times, make it clear that there is a difference.

* All literature, including the Bible. There would be references to women having breasts, men having beards, being circumcised and/or having foreskins cut off, etc.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

Beards in the Bible (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=006881879558367283326%3Aswv6cnghaic&q=beard&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A1)

* A fair amount of history and legends about history. The stories of Amazons cutting off a breast to become good at archery, for example, would not make sense if everyone is built like a male.

* Any knowledge of menstruation--which would be endemic in a medieval setting, since there were so many religious laws dealing with a woman's "impurity" during her period (men weren't allowed to have sex with menstruating women, for example) and need for "purification" in church after giving birth.

* A certain amount of awareness of his own body. If he believes himself to be a woman, he should be wondering just where a baby comes out. Out of the penis would be horrific, and shitting it out would be unpleasant. (Given the emphasis on marriage and children for a medieval woman, especially a princess who knew that she would be married young for political reasons, I think that "she" would wonder.)

* Curiosity. If everyone is built the same way, then why is a distinction between men and women being made at all? I would wonder that, especially if I didn't have much else to think about.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Excellent points.
And all of them except the Bible reading (which was reserved to priests) are things that have tripped me up.

I don't want Marion to come off stupid, just naive. And the Robin Hood stuff is very hand-wavey on Marian, for the most part. She's more scenery than anything.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

I suppose it would somewhat depend on how isolated he is kept. If he is really isolated, and all of his experience is labeled "female," then he would think "male" is "female."

I read a true story about a man whose circumcision went really wrong when he was a newborn. He was raised as a girl, but he always knew he was different. When he was an adult, he transitioned back to being male. Also, transgender people always have a sense of being the other sex, even from a very young age.

But if your character is kept very isolated. Then he would think that what he is: a person with a penis who wears a dress and shaves - is a "woman." Perhaps he would have male impulses but female habits?

Anyway, sounds fascinating! I love Robin Hood stories.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

You're right about the Bible being more for priests, monks, etc. than anythin. But Bible stories would be told, both in church and out of it, and I'd expect her to hear quotations from it (at least in sermons). I don't think she could avoid church, either, given the times.

I see what you're trying to do. It sounds difficult, given how much sex and sexuality permeates all areas of society. Good luck.

[not-vacillating.livejournal.com]

On avoiding church, it depends how rich the family is. If they have a private chapel, they could pay off a priest to avoid such references, thus giving the appearance of attending church while reducing the dangers.

Generally, this concept reminds me of the story of the Buddha, who is said to have been raised to adult (married with kids) without coming into contact with suffering or death.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

Other commenters have very good points. My own research has led me to believe that nature/nurture is not an absolute. A man with high testosterone levels will probably come out of it masculine, no matter what he's been exposed to. But a man who is born to be gay would probably fall into the role quite naturally. (Not saying that these two characteristics are 'opposite' - obviously there are gay men with high testosterone.)

gehayi said, "If he believes himself to be a woman, he should be wondering just where a baby comes out." Not necessarily. *I* didn't. I believe I found out the truth at about the age of 16. High class medieval could be kept *very* naive, depending on the companions allowed. And there are other things that can be easily explained away. Breasts can be very late to develop, for instance.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking that they would have a private chapel. Kings and princes didn't often go to church with ordinary folk. Marian Fitzwalter was King Richard's ward. She was noted for her piety (skipping church is not an option).

I'm mangling this, badly. No Caffiene.

[skogkatt.livejournal.com]

I feel like Male!Marian could plausibly exist innocent of her true gender so long as they kept her close and filtered all of her exposure to the outside world. It's an interesting concept.

[not-vacillating.livejournal.com]

That makes sense to me.

Earlier on today I had another thought about this, but now I'm at the computer it seems to be totally gone.

[tannenwynn.livejournal.com]

Social conditioning during this time period could be quite effective, really, considering the amount of money a King (or King's household) could throw at the issue. I agree with the posters that everything that is masculine in him, he'd identify as feminine, since he's being told he is female.

In any case, I have had my curiosity piqued! I do believe I wanna read this one! :)

[jlm121.livejournal.com]

I keep reading this and think of Achilles, hidden and dressed as woman but when they do come for him this perfect warrior emerges. Do you need to have her be completely naive and sheltered? Would perhaps understanding the danger of the gender ie being male be the impetus to keep the female behavior.
I think unless we are talking about fairy tale, the princess kept locked away in the highest tower you can't escape the social constructs of gender.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

It's a Robin Hood thing.
I'm writing it in July

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

You have it...
I think I like that idea better than Marion being totally ignorant

"I mean,I know I'm not a maid, but Bess has her heart so set on it, and it's so much safer this way."

The D-Man checks in

[(Anonymous)]

I lean more towards Nurture over Nature. Even gender-confused, the prince has been raised (for whatever reason) in a vastly different than normal medieval culture. Culture is what teaches children how to behave, even as a man or woman; what is proper & what is not. The lad will likely also--as most children are--be eager to please and find acceptance, so if certain behaviors gain him smiles and praise, while others gain him admonishment and isolation (especially for lack of anyone else to turn to that feels as he does in his isolated little wherever he's being cloistered & raised... I think he will go with what he perceives as "normal" for the setting in which he exists.

Art, sculpture & tapestries can all be carefully controlled as to what adorns the walls and hallways so he never sees anything but what gender images his keepers want him to see.

Literature can easily be censored.

If you have the money and the means, you can really do a number on most any kid's head. The military and various religious cults do this all the time to full grown adults, let alone children who have limited life experiences (and in this prince's case no real exposure to anything other than what those raising him want him to know).

In short, I believe the answer is, "Yes... It could be done."

Re: The D-Man checks in

[(Anonymous)]

As a quick pair of examples:

Scottish boys see nothing wrong with wearing kilts. It's part of their culture. Try to put an American boy in a kilt, and he'll likely resist or outright refuse.

Arab boys see nothing wrong with holding hands with other boys, or kissing other males on the cheek in greeting. It's part of their culture. Try to tell an American boy that such behavior is okay, and 99% will definitely refuse, and probably tell you off.

Re: The D-Man checks in

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

*laugh* You never did make it back for a visit.
Number one son craves a utili-kilt. He spent much of his at-home time between the ages of 8 and 11 wearing his big sister's dresses.


I was thinking both of ambiguously genitaled people who have been raised as one sex and then declared they were the other, and of the French king whose mother raised him as a girl and whose female behavior persisted into adulthood.