Amusing short vid

[valarltd]

I don't agree with the march itself. But the video is cool.

http://www.rightwingeye.com/



I am not Pro-Choice. I am not Pro-Life. I believe abortion is killing. But I also believe there are times when a death is the only answer. The good of the many outweighs the good of the individual.

I also think too many women are irresponsible. There's a classic southern legal defense "he needed killin'." There is a medical diagnosis "too stupid to live." My opinion is that there should be the position "too careless to be trusted with a uterus, let alone a baby."

I think a woman who finds herself needing an abortion for reasons other than fetal deformity or her life is stupid. She is careless and irresponsible. She has failed to control her fertility and her body.

But I won't stop her getting one. I reserve the right to hold her up as a poor example of responsible feminity.

Comments

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I take it that when your children fall over and hurt their knees through running too fast, you feel free to hold them up as examples of irresponsible childhood, too careless to be trusted with the right to exercise their bodies - or possibly just too careless to be trusted with knees. Your judgement is that if they make one careless mistake and hurt themselves, it proves they're too stupid to be allowed to run around outdoors.

Honestly, your judgemental attitude towards a woman who wants to terminate her pregnancy is the worst thing I know about you. It's hurtful and it's nasty and it's nothing like the way you appear to behave in any other aspect of your life - I'm quite sure that if an adult fell over on the street because they carelessly stepped on a patch of ice you would not say that proves they're too stupid to be allowed out. Yet you do appear to think that when a sexually active women makes a mistake this proves she's too stupid to have a uterus.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

That's because slipping on a patch of ice is an accident.

Having sex without two forms of birth control is a deliberate action.
And it is stupid, period.

Sex is not entertainment on par with watching a TV show. It's more akin to driving a car. And if you drive drunk with no seatbelts (the equivalent of not using BC), then I have no sympathy when you get killed in an accident.

And no, I don't comfort the kids when they skin their knees. It's more on the order of "Why were you tearing around like a banshee anyway? Walk and you don't fall."

Part of being an adult is being responsible for one's body. There is no excuse for a mature woman to get pregnant when she does not want to be. None.

I adhere to the standards I hold others to.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

And no, I don't comfort the kids when they skin their knees. It's more on the order of "Why were you tearing around like a banshee anyway? Walk and you don't fall."

No, no. To be completely consistent in your moral standards, when they skin their knees you should tell them "You're too stupid to walk." Or possibly "You're too stupid to have legs." After all, one mistake, in your mind, is enough to condemn someone permanently.

There is no excuse for a mature woman to get pregnant when she does not want to be. None.

Oh, come off it. That statement is about as culturally arrogant/ignorant as Orson Scott Card's claims about marriage: and I doubt that you're really that arrogant/ignorant.

I adhere to the standards I hold others to.

Ah well: me, I'm too aware that I myself make mistakes and do stupid things to be as hurtfully judgemental as you when I see other people make mistakes and do stupid things. Because I know I'm capable of being stupid or careless or thoughtless, I don't dismiss someone immediately as "too stupid to - " when I see them do something stupid/careless/thoughtless. Further, I bear in mind that I have been pressured into doing things I didn't want to do, or even things I didn't think were very sensible, and once or twice even things I thought were wrong. Sometimes because of love, or because of financial pressure, or a concatenated weight of circumstances. I don't always adhere to my own standards. I don't think that anyone in the real world ever does.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I maintain that in civilized countries there is no reason for a woman to get pregnant when she doesn't want to be. Part of being a sexually active adult is being responsible.

Birth control is easy to come by. If you can't afford $5 for a box of condoms, how on earth can you afford a baby?

Pro-Choice people are trying to have it both ways, saying that a woman is mature enough to have sex, but not mature enough to be responsible about it. I find that a more degrading view of women than anything I can hold.

I believe that we must behave as intelligent beings in order to be treated as such.

Yeah, I'm quite capable of making mistakes. But you know what? I was sexually active for 14 years and never got pregnant when I did not want to be. If I can do it, any one else can.

I maintain that unplanned pregnancy is not an accident akin to slipping on ice. It's more akin to being maimed while driving drunk.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I maintain that in civilized countries there is no reason for a woman to get pregnant when she doesn't want to be.

Well, I don't disagree that a "civilised country" is one where everyone who is old enough to be sexually active has free access to contraception, and everyone from before the age of sexual activity has been taught how to use contraception: but by that definition neither my country nor yours is civilised yet. (And I think even in this hypothetical civilised country you envisage, there would likely still be mistakes, faulty equipment, and rape: for which reason.)

Part of being a sexually active adult is being responsible.

Exactly: yet for some reason you condemn an adult who is responsible enough to terminate a pregnancy that she does not want to continue, as "careless".

Birth control is easy to come by.

Not invariably in my own country, despite the NHS. And from reports, not invariably in your country, either. Neither is education in how to use birth control as available as it ought to be.

If you can't afford $5 for a box of condoms, how on earth can you afford a baby?

Isn't that why your hypothetical "civilised country" would have free contraception, available to both women and men?

Pro-Choice people are trying to have it both ways, saying that a woman is mature enough to have sex, but not mature enough to be responsible about it. I find that a more degrading view of women than anything I can hold.

If you think that giving a woman the right to make decisions directly affecting her own life is degrading to her, sure. But you can hardly call it "irresponsible". Making decisions about whether or not to stay pregnant is taking responsibility, rather than (as the pro-lifers want) forcing a woman to hand decisions like that over to the government.

Yeah, I'm quite capable of making mistakes. But you know what? I was sexually active for 14 years and never got pregnant when I did not want to be. If I can do it, any one else can.

How nice for you. As I said before: I really don't think you "hear" how hurtful and arrogant your attitude is. I like you too much to wish ill on you, but I admit that it's awfully tempting: you appear to have deliberately switched off all humility and compassion in this specific area. You never made a mistake, so anyone who did is beyond the pale. You have no concept of why someone might fall pregnant when they didn't mean to be, and you don't intend to try and understand it: just condemn it from your superior position as a person of complete moral rectitude.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm classing any country where one can walk into a store and buy a pack of condoms without a second thought as civilized. If I wanted to, I could hike the 3/4 of a mile to Wal-Mart, buy condoms, spermicidal foam and a contraceptive suppository this minute. It is like that in every town in the country.

I condemn her for getting pregnant in the first place.

I don't believe in male contraception. It's not the man who gets pregnant so it's not his problem. It's nice if he gives it some thought, but most men aren't that considerate.

My attitude is deliberately hurtful. I do not suffer fools gladly. I put 90% of women in that category to begin with. And things like this only confirm it.

No, I have no concept of why someone would catch pregnant when they don't want to be. The information to avoid it is out there. The tools are out there. Why aren't people educating themselves?

Why is demanding that women act as if they have half a brain and aren't ruled by their emotions ("Oh i got swept up in the moment!") a bad thing? Why is wanting people to think ahead and plan considered arrogant?

I'm not asking anyone to do anything heroic or even difficult. I'm asking women to make their choices before they have sex, like adults, and not go running to the daddy-doctor to get them out of the consequences, like children.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Actually, what I consider arrogant is your presumption that you owe your record of never having become pregnant against your will to your own virtues. Self-righteousness is another word for it.

But if you are intentionally and joyfully arrogant about your own virtues and hurtful about other people who fail, well, that does make you the kind of person I don't like very much after all.

[slashmommy.livejournal.com]

Just going to start by saying, not an attack and you are perfectly free to have your opinion. I have friends who are pro-choice and friends who are pro-life.

My main thing though is that there is more to the March for Women's Lives than just the Choice issue. Other issues include: the pressure at the Department of Health and Human Services to marry (Horn has proposed denying benefits to cohabitating couples and withholding money from single mothers until all married couples have been served.), the availability of health insurance (About 15 % of the U.S. population (44 million Americans, including 8.5 million children) do not even have health insurance), the global gag rule (The current administration has reinstated the “Global Gag Rule,” which denies US funding to non-US family planning organizations that perform abortions, provide abortion referrals, or advocate for reproductive justice—even if they use their own money to do so including the Nations Population Fund), and sex education since the current administration wants to limit it to abstinence only.

I'm not saying the March will not also be discussing abortion, just that it is about more than that.

I'm marching in part because of my political beliefs, but also because of my cousin. She is a prime example of what can happen when things go wrong. She is 17 years old and is 8 months pregnant. She did everything right -- used a condom (which broke) and spermicide but that wasn't enough to prevent her getting pregnant. She didn't find out until she was too far along to abort that the child is going to have a cleft palatte (sp?) and that this is often tied to heart issues so when the time comes, there she'll be with a kid with that many issues and only her parents to support her. This is why the whole issue with the Department of Health and Human Services is an important issue for me. I don't want to see my cousin marrying, just because it is the best way for her to get assistance.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I support the pressure to marry. Marriage is the single best anti-poverty program out there. I can see serving married families first.

The health insurance is a pain for everyone. Been there, not had it.

The global gag rule does what it was intended to do: encourages the spread of AIDS in the third world, and reduces the female population by encouraging maternal death.

I approve of fighting for sex education. Long, comprehensive and intense.

Actually, you can abort into the 8th month for fetal deformity.
It just takes a stronger stomach.

[slashmommy.livejournal.com]

I agree that two incomes are better than one, but I'm not sure it is always a viable option. In my cousin's case, marrying this dorky senior in high school, who is living off my aunt and uncle's kindness is not going to help her other than with the Department of Health and Human Services. I would much rather she be single and happy than married to someone who treats her badly because of HHS. Also, not all single mothers are choosing to be single. What about widows? What about rape cases? There are a lot of reasons for being single and a mom other than just promiscuity.

And actually, cleft palatte (sp?) doesn't qualify her to have an abortion this late. The only way she is allowed to have an abortion in her state is if there is an imminent risk to her health.

I am glad to see that the two of us can discuss this without hostility. My sister in law and I can't discuss anything even remotely politically without getting into a fight. :)

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Rape cases almost never go into pregnancy. That's what the emergency contraception is for in the emergency room.

Three years ago I would have said widows were a rare case. Unfortunately we can't say that anymore. My great-aunt was widowed with 3 boys in the 1950s.

Divorce is another reason.

There are many reasons one would end up a single mother. I wouldn't even class it as necessarily promiscuity. My SiL caught her very first time.

This is why I've always advocated reversible sterilization at menearche.
That way one has to opt into motherhood.

[slashmommy.livejournal.com]

Rape cases almost never go into pregnancy. That's what the emergency contraception is for in the emergency room.

That only accounts for reported rapes where the victim goes to the hospital. A lot of women who are raped do not seek treatment for a variety of reasons.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

The global gag rule does what it was intended to do: encourages the spread of AIDS in the third world, and reduces the female population by encouraging maternal death.

Actually, the global gag rule is intended to do exactly what you approve of: forcibly prevent women from being, in your terms, "irresponsible". The side-effects are what you describe: but the intention is "pro-life" - that is, anti-choice.